I am totally for it. Its a womens body, she has to live with it everyday. Men have no idea what its like to be pregnant[snapback]284774[/snapback]
oh snap, you were pregnant before?
and the egg in her body isnt even a person yet. THere shouldn't be any argument with men that its wrong, specially george bush, has he been pregant? God i hope not, but he doesn't even know! For giving up the life of this "cell" we are learning things about mankind, and using the fetus to help regenerate legs, stem cell research! only fetuses have this, and if women are getting abortions, why not use the fetus for testing? Even if made illeagle, women would do it themselves illeagley and maybe end up killing themselves and the fetus. What do you think?
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do a lil more studying before you say that. a cell? it starts off as a cell, but growz larger and the cellz multiply to become a living fetus. lol, i hope to God that you arent gonna try to argue that a fetus isnt alive.
its straight-up murder, and i know people that arent even christianz that'll say the same thing...women that'll say the same thing. dont try to act like men are the only people that can be against abortion. if someone doesnt want their kid, they can put it up for adoption.
I am totally for it. Its a womens body, she has to live with it everyday. Men have no idea what its like to be pregnant, and the egg in her body isnt even a person yet. THere shouldn't be any argument with men that its wrong, specially george bush, has he been pregant? God i hope not, but he doesn't even know!
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I completely agree. There are too many men deciding here, and the government should just leave it alone.
hand though, I don't think it's any better to bring a child into an unloving family.
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thats why therez adoption servicez.
no duh. but its still killing isnt it? yes because it has no idea whats going on, same as a fetus. so therefor it s killing as well, and dont talk to me when it comes to biology buddy, because i have straight A's in science, and my mom's a science geek.
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It's not killing because there is nothing to kill. Don't go on about straight As either. As are given out like candy in many schools for just showing up. All you have to do is be in the teacher's good graces. ANYWAY, your logic is still terrible. An unfertilized egg is not a living being, just like sperm alone is not a living being. Further more, the fetus CAN feel and even think. Why do you think they run away from the death tools? There are videos and the like to PROVE this, but they are not appropriate for this board.
sure it would, i wouldnt have known any better.
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a fetus iz structurally heterogeneous, composed of cellz, can metabolize, can maintain an internal environment, can grow, and can respond to stimulus (including pain). that makes it as alive as you and me.
sure it would, i wouldnt have known any better.
and killing a fetus isnt much to say either, it doesnt know anythoing so it wouldnt matter. we all die someday.
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Your right! Im gonna go pull a Dessert Eagle on the retarded kid in the hospital! He won't know any better! :glare:
whats a fetus got to acomplish? nothing. except growing maybe.
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yea...but why give it that chance right?
thats not true liz, many kids are on the teachers good side and have F's. my school is super strict, so dont bother arguing with me about that. and im sure it knows that its being killed, just like it can play video games. now really , its like saying your killing a plant. it can feel, its there, but does it do anything? no it does not. it just dies, and thats that.
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1. I don't believe you on that first part. Sorry. I could say more, but I am trying to keep from being very rude.
2. How do you feel about getting pregnant cats/dogs spayed?
3. Plants and people are not the same.
4. I have a baby with Down's Syndrome. I can go bash it's head out in the alley and throw it in the dumpster, right? It won't know the difference. It has nothing to accomplish, except growing maybe.
great icefox, you have fun with that. :thumbsup: thats an actual person who can walk and talk and do things.
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Hahaha. No. Because some of them are vegitables! Not all mentally retarded can walk, talk, etc. They wont know anybody. One gun. Same as one spoon.
right, it doesn't have a choice, its just an ungrown human who doesnt know anything. Its what the mother of this "fetus" would like to do with it. I'm totally for people choosing whether or not to have an adoption, peple should make their own choices. although i do admit it is probably wrong to kill a little ungrown human, but its not their decision, it lays in hands with the mother.
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so the decision layz in the handz of the mother huh? she can decide of her baby dies? by that logic, murder itself has no immorality. i think i'll go kill people cuz itz my decision to...everyone dies right?
f she cant afford to have a baby, be pregnant with one, or could die from being pregnant with one, then hell yes its her decsion. men dont deserve to say women cant have it. i dont agree with them having it done, but i agree with her having her own choice, not some man who's god upsessed or upsessed with other peoples life to choose for her. thats almost as bad as slavery here.
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MEN ARENT THE ONLY ONES WHO ARE AGAINST IT!! case in point...liz.
and no matter wut you say...the slaughtering of a fetus cuz a woman didnt want it has no justification.
and i think spaying is fine with dogs and cats. why not? its preventing them from disease and expands their life
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That wasn't the question. If they are already pregnant, is that ok?
well i'm not arguing women think its bad. like i said ITS THE WOMENS CHOICE WHAT SHE WANTS, NOT SOMEONE ELSES CHOICE. NOT YOURS! NOT GEORGE BUSH'S! NOT HER RAPER! NOT HER DOCTOR! HERS!
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to do what she wants to HERSELF!!! not to another living being.
If she cant afford to have a baby, be pregnant with one, or could die from being pregnant with one, then hell yes its her decsion.
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I agree with the fact that if she could die from being pregnant then an abortion should happen. Now as for your other excuses, they can be avoided by NOT HAVING SEX. It's that simple.
I've said all i needed to stay. I'll watch as the next victim gets torn apart.... hmm hm hm =D
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No one Is buying the whole victim routine. I have seen that too many times to fall for it.
I am for it on very strict terms though.
1. No partial birth abortions... totally unacceptable.
2. They must be the result of incest or if they baby will die before birth anyways.
You take the risk of getting pregnant anytime you have intercourse, and if you aren't ready to take responsibility for a child then you have no right to have any kind of sexual contact at all... condom or no condom. The only foolproof way to not get pregnant is abstinence. Don't take a child's life away just because you were irresponsible. It is jsut plain wrong.
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What about the pregnancy being the result of a rape. Women are FORCED into sex when a rape happens. And when women end up pregnant from rape, they didn't want to become pregnant or even constant to sex.
its not your body, get over it.
not only that, what if she did have protection, but it didnt work? she was being safe, and it didnt work. you cant get on her case for that. if shes 30 years old, had protection so she wouldnt get it, then yes she has the choice to get rid of it and has the right to, its her body, she controls whats growing in it, happening in it, and no one else does, or deserves to.
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You're right it's not my body, but neither was Nicole Simpson's or John Lennon's or any of the people that died in the 9/11 attacks..
LOL, I remember when my history professor tried to tell us that women died during childbirth in the Middle Ages because the Church didn't allow abortion. Can you imagine how dangerous an abortion would have been back then? It was the age of missing knowlege.
Yes, Paige's post reminded me of this so whatever.
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Yes, I can imagine how dangerous abortions were back then. They are still performed unproffessionaly by females now, even though they can get them done in a medical clinic (I actually do not know if you can get them in teh states or not).
Ah, well. Your history professor was obviously being stupid. There were probally some cases that women did die from not aborting their baby, but gah. Most deaths would of been caused by serious blood loss and/or infection caused (that is just an assumption based on my knowledge on horse birth).
.....I've seen this topic before... <_<
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But if somneone replied to it would be a bump
LOL, I remember when my history professor tried to tell us that women died during childbirth in the Middle Ages because the Church didn't allow abortion. Can you imagine how dangerous an abortion would have been back then? It was the age of missing knowlege.
Yes, Paige's post reminded me of this so whatever.
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Yes, I can imagine how dangerous abortions were back then. They are still performed unproffessionaly by females now, even though they can get them done in a medical clinic (I actually do not know if you can get them in teh states or not).
Ah, well. Your history professor was obviously being stupid. There were probally some cases that women did die from not aborting their baby, but gah. Most deaths would of been caused by serious blood loss and/or infection caused (that is just an assumption based on my knowledge on horse birth).
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You can get an abortion in the states, depending on the state. I don't want a woman to just get an abortion just because she doesn't want the baby, from consentsual sex.
Illegal abortions are awful, many are done by coat hangers. Where they try to get the fetus out using the hook. Your history profesor was very wrong, the whole reason why woman back then died of child birth was because of infection. Getting a hook up their would have caused bleeding and infection also. Death at childbirth
went way down after doctors used antiseptics.
LOL, I remember when my history professor tried to tell us that women died during childbirth in the Middle Ages because the Church didn't allow abortion. Can you imagine how dangerous an abortion would have been back then? It was the age of missing knowlege.
Yes, Paige's post reminded me of this so whatever.
[snapback]284973[/snapback]
Yes, I can imagine how dangerous abortions were back then. They are still performed unproffessionaly by females now, even though they can get them done in a medical clinic (I actually do not know if you can get them in teh states or not).
Ah, well. Your history professor was obviously being stupid. There were probally some cases that women did die from not aborting their baby, but gah. Most deaths would of been caused by serious blood loss and/or infection caused (that is just an assumption based on my knowledge on horse birth).
[snapback]284976[/snapback]
You can get an abortion in the states, depending on the state. I don't want a woman to just get an abortion just because she doesn't want the baby, from consentsual sex.
Illegal abortions are awful, many are done by coat hangers. Where they try to get the fetus out using the hook. Your history profesor was very wrong, the whole reason why woman back then died of child birth was because of infection. Getting a hook up their would have caused bleeding and infection also. Death at childbirth
went way down after doctors used antiseptics.
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Thank-you for clearing that up for me. :)
I am for it on very strict terms though.
1. No partial birth abortions... totally unacceptable.
2. They must be the result of incest or if they baby will die before birth anyways.
You take the risk of getting pregnant anytime you have intercourse, and if you aren't ready to take responsibility for a child then you have no right to have any kind of sexual contact at all... condom or no condom. The only foolproof way to not get pregnant is abstinence. Don't take a child's life away just because you were irresponsible. It is jsut plain wrong.
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What about the pregnancy being the result of a rape. Women are FORCED into sex when a rape happens. And when women end up pregnant from rape, they didn't want to become pregnant or even constant to sex.
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If someone gets pregnant from rape then just give the kid up for adoption when he/she is born... simple as that. It is wrong to deny a fetuses right to live just because you don't want to or can't take care of it.
If someone gets pregnant from rape then just give the kid up for adoption when he/she is born... simple as that. It is wrong to deny a fetuses right to live just because you don't want to or can't take care of it.
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That's one case where I agree with abortion... I believe that if a girl is raped that she should have the option of whether or not she'd like to keep the baby because she shouldn't have to go through the pain of childbirth when she didn't have consenual sex.
No Liz, i didnt get "pwned" or "owned" i just felt that if i said anything more to any other people i would get banned , while im restraining myself from saying anything right now, its hard you bet. i said i believe that the women should have a choice for abortion, and i didnt think it was right to have one, but the women should have a choice. ok? I wasnt supposed to say anything, but too late. Ty's logic for this is exactly how i feel. so no, i didnt get "pwned". And im directing this to everyone, not just liz....
sorry for being cranky people...im up early...tutoring for math...bleh -_-
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Hah, you don't get banned for stuff like that.
You don't make sense. You may not think it is right, but women should have a choice? I don't think it's right to steal. Should people be allowed to make a choice there too?
without reading 5 pages of debate, ill put in this:
I believe that a woman should have the choice of whether or not to have an arbortion. But in the event that the father wants the abortion and the mother does not, then the father must be freed from all legal and financial obligations regarding the child to be born forever. By proceeding with the birth against the wishes of the father the woman is making the asertion that she is fully capable of raising and caring for that child all by herself.
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If the father doesn't want the birth to happen he shouldn't have had intercourse with her, and if he decides to leave her then she should get as much child supprot as possible from him... it is wrong to just tell your wife "Oh, well I don't think we should have a baby, get an abortion." It takes two people. If the father is freed from all financial obligation then how is the women supposed to raise the child? The loser should at least pay support. I don't know where you got that chivalrist idea from but it is absurd.
So when a woman uses a needle to puncture a whole in a condem so that she will get pregnant and get money out of a guy, he should just sit back and take it? it may take two people to concieve a child, but it only takes one to have a child. If a woman makes the decision to let a child go from a collection of cells to a human being, then she must bare the costs as well. And of course there is also adoption. nothing says that woman has to keep the child either. Women have all the power, men have none. Lets give the guys a say in what happens in their lives as well.
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Then the GUY shouldn't have SEX with her then. It doesn't matter if she pokes a hole in the condom or not... if he isn't READY for that type of responsibility he has NO BUSINESS having intercourse with her. I agree with the adoption thing. That is an option. But it doesn't matter what argument you bring up... you have sex no matter WHAT there is almost always a possibility of pregnancy. My best friend from school wasn't even SUPPOSED to be born. His mother had her tubes tied and STILL got pregnant. The only way you can assure not getting pregnant is not having sex or having a histerectomy, and I really don't believe in histerectomies unless it is absolutely essential.
So when a woman uses a needle to puncture a whole in a condem so that she will get pregnant and get money out of a guy, he should just sit back and take it? it may take two people to concieve a child, but it only takes one to have a child. If a woman makes the decision to let a child go from a collection of cells to a human being, then she must bare the costs as well. And of course there is also adoption. nothing says that woman has to keep the child either. Women have all the power, men have none. Lets give the guys a say in what happens in their lives as well.
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Then the GUY shouldn't have SEX with her then. It doesn't matter if she pokes a hole in the condom or not... if he isn't READY for that type of responsibility he has NO BUSINESS having intercourse with her. I agree with the adoption thing. That is an option. But it doesn't matter what argument you bring up... you have sex no matter WHAT there is almost always a possibility of pregnancy. My best friend from school wasn't even SUPPOSED to be born. His mother had her tubes tied and STILL got pregnant. The only way you can assure not getting pregnant is not having sex or having a histerectomy, and I really don't believe in histerectomies unless it is absolutely essential.
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she got her tubes tied and he was still born? :huh: very confused....
she got her tubes tied and he was still born? :huh: very confused....
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That happens more often than you think. A woman gets her tubes tied, but she still gets pregnant.
got proof? just because a woman says she cant give birth doesnt make that true, especialy if she is telling you that so she can get pregnant.
besides, sex hasnt been about reproduction for at least as long as we've had prostitutes. When two people meet up in a bar and have a one night stand, they arent doing it to have a kid. Unless of course that woman is a lying manipulative (you know what) and wants to grab a man any way she can, using her unborn child as leverage. That would sure be a great life eh? Your parents dont even love each other and your just an ends to a means, sounds wonderful...
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Hun, no one said sex just about producing babies nowadays. We all know it isn't. Be reasponsible for your actions though. There is a chance you can get a girl pregnant no matter what sort of birth control she is on. If you are willing to have sex, be willing to take care of the child you might produce.
Hun, no one said sex is just about producing babies nowadays. We all know it isn't. [snapback]286428[/snapback]
It should be. Sex is dangerous without protection and is actually quite pointless other than reproducing, well I think so...
Hun, no one said sex is just about producing babies nowadays. We all know it isn't. [snapback]286428[/snapback]
It should be. Sex is dangerous without protection and is actually quite pointless other than reproducing, well I think so...
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I agree, but it obviously isn't anymore. So people need to be educated on how to protect themselves, own up to their reasponsibility if pregnancy happens, or just not have sex.
@winston:
lemme get this straight...catholic and other groups of faith teach abstinence programs, so if a region of world has an AIDS problem, it's the faith groups's fault? "hmmm, these people have AIDS...all of em must derrive sole sexual education from catholic/christian abstinence teachings, so its gotta be their fault."
@sarah
im gonna have to agree with winston on the last part though. even in the christian faith, sex is looked upon as a sacred act and gift from God to have and enjoy through marriage...its only looked down upon when it becomes commonplace for someone and it loses its sacred value. its a good thing, it just shouldnt be taken lightly. so like he said, dont knock it, lol.
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Actually yes. if the church should get a grip with reality and start giving away condoms and teaching safe sex it, would help.
Not having sex is the best option....I beleive sex should only be used for reproduction...not for fun, because it's just plain stupid.
What's so great about it? I mean, it seems quite pointless other than reproduction.
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The catholic church and others have been spending vast sums of money and time preaching absitenance programs. These programs make no mention of protection or safe sex, and completely ignore the fact that its human nature to be horny. You know what the result of them telling everyone not to have sex and leaving it at that is?
Aproximately 25 million Africans now live with AIDS. some 60% of all the people who have AIDS live in Africa. maybe if they had been educated instead of told to keep it in their pants until they get married, this wouldnt be the problem that it is. Lets just outlaw birth control in America and see how long before disease and poverty rule the land.
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BULL! If the church is telling them to have refrain from sexual promiscuity, and they do it anyway, KNOWING that they could get AIDS, then that is not a fault of the church. Further more, you ought to know that when one partner has AIDS, there is no such thing as protection. The AIDS virus can go straight through condoms. You merely enjoy taking cheap shots, mate. Cheap shots and no substance doesn't fool anyone.
On the whole abortion for health of the mother issue: I'd say that's only for tubal pregnancies. If giving natural birth will kill the mother, there is always a C-section.
Bolding Mine:
According to a study conducted by the University of Wisconsin condoms will reduce the chances of AIDS infection by 80%. There is my substance, lets see yours.
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And that is a chance worth taking? If I gave you a parachute and told you that you have an 80% chance of this parachute working when you jump off the plane, would you want to jump?
Sure, condoms might prevent someone from getting AIDS, but they might not. People aren't wild beasts. They CAN keep certain body parts to themselves, and it is a FACT that if people were to stay with only one partner, whether they are married or not, their chance of getting AIDS is incredibly slim.
So the church is right in telling people not to use condoms or at the least not even mentioning that they do help?
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You want to eradicate the problem entirely, or just cover up the problem? Quit assuming these people are stupid. Have you ever been to a third world country? They aren't as retarded as you are making them out to be. YOU good sir, are making Africans sound like stupid, wild animals with no common sense or self control. And you dared call someone else racist.
For the record, there ARE people who administer condoms in Africa. Go join them and destroy some lives, why don't you?
@loco, as long as that money and effort is going towards covering up the fact that people are engineered to have sex, nothing will change. Second: This is coming from the same person who would cast every ilegal imigrant to a similar fate? you are such a hypocrite.
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covering up that people are engineered to have sex? once again you act like africans dont understand wut that thing between their legs can do..that they're just wild people with an uncontrollable sexual appetite. and i dunno wut the hell you're talkin bout illegal immigrants for...my opinion on illegal immigration is that if they're gonna be here, they should have to pay taxes like the rest of us...that makes me a hypocrite somehow? and so you're tellin me the fact that i try to donate money, the fact that i've spent time in tanzanian shelters, and the fact that my church and others raises money for food, clothes, shelter, and decent structures means nothing. since wut i've done, wut my church, and wut other churches have done dont mean anything...wut is it you've done thats helped people so much. and you better have a dam good answer for that, otherwise you got NO stake in criticizing me or church in any way. the world dont need another armchair-preacher to go and whine about sumthin that they dont like but then sit back and do NOTHING about it.
and as far as the AIDS itself goes...liz is right. if you want AIDS to die out, there has to be celibacy.
It's like telling a kid not to touch the cookie pan. You tell him why: because he will burn his hand. He still touches the pan. Who's fault is that?
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winston thinks its the parent's fault for not giving his kid oven mits. cuz obviously the kid HAS to have cookies doesnt he?
According to the bible (iirc) you exist because GOD told mankind DO NOT HAVE SEX. man had sex, thus, humanity. Now if almighty God himself cant stop human nature, what chance does some foreigner have?
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after eve was tempted with the fruit of the foribidden tree and man become mortal, God gave us sex and childbirth in order to repopulate. He never said DO NOT HAVE SEX.
Prove it. I could sit here and rattle off all kinds of things. Prove what you claim.
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prove it? let's see, there's my tanzanian friend alfred aminane. i know him and his whole family. we've given him and his community, books, food, candy, toys, as well as bibles for their local church.
here you go smart one, this is alfred and his wife evelyn. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/lil_loco365/AlfredEvelynaminane.jpg)
his kids playing with a couple etch-a-sketches that we got them. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/lil_loco365/children.jpg)
him and his family together. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/lil_loco365/AlfredEvelynfamily2.jpg)
picture at their church (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/lil_loco365/church.jpg)
i aint gonna keep these pictures up long, i'm just makin a point.
and as far as the cookie analogy thing goes...these mits arent guaranteed to prevent you from getting burned. and the parent doesnt want you to touch the cookies till you decide which cookie you wanna keep (get married). so thats the bottom line on that. people understand the risks they take if and when they decide to take them. and like liz said, if they feel like chancing it and running the risk of destroying their lives, there are people outside the church who distribute condoms.
BOTH OF YOU, stop arguing or else!
This topic has gone down hill...much like the other topics like this.
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No personal attacks have been made, just debate.
oh, so africa is the only place in the world with AIDS huh? no other place has it? yea, africa is the continent with the largest concentration of AIDS but it aint the only places it exists in.
know what i didnt realize? that everyone in africa and other AIDS infected places listens to the church. i mean, i didnt know the church was the number 1 source of sexual knowledge, and if they fail to talk about safe sex then how are people ever gonna find out about it? wow...scary stuff.
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Yeah, the chruch is one of hte most influential forces in africa where sex education is concerned. All those nuns and missionaries you know. Basicaly they are telling folks to not use condoms, since those are immoral and sinful, and isntead to not have sex. Rather than accomodating human nature they are trying to change it. wont work, never has and short of evolution or physicaly changing the brain, it never will.
"But while the church calls on developed nations to devote more resources to drug access, it deplores the most effective method of halting the spread of HIV: condom education, use and distribution."
http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm (http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm)
Thats just one. there is lots more. lots lots lots more. The church does a lot in africa, but that isnt doing africa the good it should be. When official church policies change to reflect reality, and to better help those people, it will be a good day indeed :D
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(Sorry, late on the argument again XD)
Yes, many missionaries travel to Africa to teach the people about God and AIDS awareness, but they haven't gotten to a majority of these people, and the ones they have gotten to have never heard of God or AIDS aweareness.