Topic: So I was fighting with a hxc Christian kid. "gays going to hell"

[DiE HaRrD PuNk]

After the death of christ 2,500 years, a bible was written in another language. Converted, and apparently after being altered and rewritten thousands of times by different people, is it not possible that certain things in the bible were left out, forgotten, or changed?


I honestly think if you are ignorant enough to say "all gays are going to hell" That all I can do is laugh. Christians and Catholics never believe their religion is wrong in any aspect, way, shape, or form. They believe a book that was written thousands of times over by different random people.

Honestly, back before a bible was written, before Jesus, what religon was there for Christianity/Catholics/Protostants/ect.?

There may have been the belief of God, but there is no proof anywhere that says certain things will send you to hell, besides the things written in a bible by thousands of people thousands of years ago, and converted from a different language. Whose to say that a converter didn't mess up while reading someting?



Gay people are NOT going to hell. They are going to hell for loving someone? Wow. HUGE sin isn't it? Gay people have thoughts, opionions, and ideas just like everyone else, except feel differently about certain emotions. Is it wrong that your emotions feel a different way?

Is it wrong for a young man or woman to go home and cry every day, wanting to kill themselves because their religon says they are going to hell, because of their feelings? Because of something they can't control, and are forced to live their life a lie or unhappy?

God doesn't want people unhappy or miserable, so why would he hate Gays? Ignorant Christians and Catholics don't make sense. They can't admit they are wrong, or that the possiblity of an old book that was written thousands of years after the death of Jesus has any implication of being wrong whatsoever.

So what if a group of people grew up on an island and a few were gay, and had never heard of God or forgivness, didn't speak any known languages today, and didn't know what sin was? Would they go to hell? Or would it be an excepting because they didnt know?

Thousands of years ago MALE SOLDIERS in ANCIENT GREECE, BEFORE THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN, THE SPARTANS, SLEPT WITH EACH OTHER. That is right, MALES HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE AND LOVE FOR ANOTHER MALE SOLDIER/PARTNER.

Were they wrong before this "rule" was made?

The old testament said that having peircings, or marks made by another on the body (such as tattoos as well) was a sin as well. Now in the new testament, it doesn't even mention it. So did God come down from heaven last Saturday saying that its ok for us to mark our bodies and peirce our ears? Did he say it's ok now? Well if he did I didn't get the reminder. It was simply "left out" of the new testament. So really, anyone who has their ears peirced is going to hell. Oh, and if you have a tattoo you are going to hell too.

He never said it was ok to have them. But now the Christians who wrote the new bible left that out.

So if they left a sin like that out of the bible, whose to say they didn't leave anything else out, or alter anything else?

Did Jesus walk around in his time yelling out " Being homosexual is a sin, you are all going to hell!"

No. He didn't. The bible has been altered with so many times, that there is no 100% correct and honest truth in it. Nothing is 100% factual. It is belief.

You can believe what you want. Does loving another human being consist of going to hell, or peircing, or tattooing your body?

God had said " I do not want places of worship built". He didn't want religous places built, because it would cause hatred and twisting of what the belief of God was really about. It was about having a personal relationship with God.

I'm pretty sure that every Good Friday that you happen to eat meat on, that God isn't writing you down on his "bad list" and sending you to hell for that. God loves you for you, not for what random dead people wrote and altered inside of a book define you as.

I believe you have a personal relationship with God. Nothing else. You want to be gay? That's fine. Abide by your countries rules, don't bring religon into the rules.

There were an orginal 10 commandements, but if you notice that throughout the bible it mentions "oh, yea , you can't have peircings. You will go to hell."

" Oh yea, you can't have tattoos, you will go to hell for that too"

" oh and now in this passage, since I feel like adding it in, " If you are gay you are going to hell"

NO. STOP. THINK

If THOSE THINGS WERE SO BAD TO GO TO HELL FOR, THEN WHY AREN'T THEY PART OF THE ORGINAL 10 COMMANDMENTS? If God knows everything and anything, and is smart like you Christians, Catholics, and whatever the hell else claim, then why didn't he add that into the top 10 commandements?

You know why? Because God doesn't see those as wrong. People who wrote the bible added stupid extra bullshit in there for shits and giggles.

Gay people ARE NOT going to hell. Anything that isn't in the top 10 commandments, and that doesnt relate to it in any way, wouldn't send you to hell. If it did, and if it was that important as people have claimed, then it would be in the top 10 commandments.


Thank you for reading, that is all

[Dragon Of Grief]

I did not choose to be attracted to other men. Why would I choose this? So I can be ridiculed be society, treated as a subhuman, be called a predator, a pedophile, and not even be allowed to marry the man that I love? Oooh yeah sounds great!

In actuality, the bible is just a book. It is a book of myths, stories, and parables. To be completely fair many parts of the bible were taken from very old Pagan texts. I can't believe people believe it is without flaw and perfect. There is no doubt that the bible was a very inspired book... but it was man that wrote this book. No divine or supernatural being had influence over it. And actually, these texts that supposdly condemn homosexuality really are condemning other things and have been mistranslated. In fact, there is a verse in the bible where Jesus himself says some men are born homosexual. I know many bible thumpers will vehemently deny this, but it's true. I love it when they reference Sodom and Gomorrah. Forget the fact that Lot pretty much was going to let a gang of men rape his daughters... forget the fact that Lot's daughters had sex with him... forget the fact that the women of Sodom were supposdly having sex with the angels.

That is what is funny, there is a verse in Jude the references "strange flesh" which in actuality is SPEAKING of the women of Sodom having sex with the angels. Oh yes, but lets references that obscure verse that supposdly the men of sodom wanted to rape the angels... which they did, however, rape is rape though... heterosexual or homosexual. The sexuality should not matter. Rape is an evil disgusting crime no matter how it is painted.

In fact I think there is a story in Kings, or Jude, can't remember, where a group of men rape a woman to death.

If God sends people to hell for being homosexual, then that is no God I EVER want to worship... in fact I would not want to worship any God that sends people to hell for disagreeing with him PERIOD. If God exists, then he is the one who made me gay. I worship Goddess Earth... the Earth that provides for us, and sustains us... no spirit in the sky ever did that.

[Scilla]

okay, so i didn't read all that.
but gawsh how many times have we talked about this? lol. but it guess it needs to be talked about.
my opinion changes every day.
i don't think gay people are going to hell, i dont think anyone is going to hell.
but thats my opinion right now.
if youre gay youre gay but jesus forgives all sins right? so even if it is wrong, hey you're off the hook.

[cmonkey]

It's ironic that you're disputing claims in the bible based on it being rewritten time and again, but you still believe that there is a hell that people won't be going to.

[Dragon Of Grief]

It's ironic that you're disputing claims in the bible based on it being rewritten time and again, but you still believe that there is a hell that people won't be going to.

I can explain that... there is a passage in the bible that says hell was made for Satan and his angels. Some peoplle interperate that is meaning only Satan and his evil angels will go to hell and that no person or soul will go there... I guess. Revelations gives a list of the sorts of people who will be cast into hell supposdly. It's all just a fairytale though, akin to Greek and Norse Pagan myths.

[Daniel]

No one posted?


Hmm, I think this forum has died. =O

[Dragon Of Grief]

The forum died a long time ago Danny boy

[IceFox]

Do we really need this thread again? We have at least 20 discussions on the same thing...

[VulturEMaN]

meh religion is a funny business sometimes. i think my facebook stance is the best imo.

[Dragon Of Grief]

Do we really need this thread again? We have at least 20 discussions on the same thing...

Yeah but they are like buried within all of the older threads.

[RandomDude18]

There is no doubt that the bible isn't perfect. Everybody makes mistakes, that includes the person that wrote the bible. My two cents...

[Elizabeth Rose]

Do we really need this thread again? We have at least 20 discussions on the same thing...

Yeah but they are like buried within all of the older threads.

Yeah, but it's old news.  Not to sound like a jerk, but everyone knows hxc Christian kids don't like gays.  Move on with life.

[Dragon Of Grief]

Yeah, but it's old news.  Not to sound like a jerk, but everyone knows hxc Christian kids don't like gays.  Move on with life.

Hmm yeah good point. No point arguing really. Waste of time.

[AppleNick]

try this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvrQ65ET76U

[Isnt Anything]

Homsexuality is a sin. Says so in the Bible in....

1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality".

and in....

1 Timothy 1:10 "the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound* doctrine"

So, there is no debate that it is sin, where the debate comes in is how should Christians react and what is it about homosexuality that makes it so sinful.

Christians should never go and condemn someone because of sin. What they can do is offer the grace and hope that is offered if they repent of their sin. There is a big difference.

Also, homosexuality is no worse than any other sin in the eyes of God. For anyone who has heard the "God hates fags" agenda, I can assure you, that doctrine is found no where in scripture. Those that preach that are teaching false doctrine.

As far as I know, there is no "gay gene" that I can see. There has been no solid proof that people are born that way. Why this is a common belief is beyond me. What I have seen are some traits that many homosexuals share with each other. Relational brokenness (a warped idea of healthy relationships), sexual abuse (not in all cases), and/or lack of a proper relationship with parent(s). There is "one size fits all" cause, but those are some common traits. I would make the stretch and say that homosexuality isn't about "love" as much as a dependancy on their partner. It looks like love, but it's really a dependancy on another to fill a void in their lives. "I'll do anything for you as long as you love me" type of thing. This, again, may sound like "love", but notice what I said. "I'll do anything for you as long as you love me". This "love" is conditional. There is a condition. "as long as". This implies that if you don't love me, I will not do everything I can for you. Love should be unconditional and not based on performance or the possibility of getting anything in return. From what I can see and have experienced, homosexuality operates like that. Granted, a lot of heterosexual couples live like that well, but it's still wrong.

When you start putting all of your faith, hope and needs into another person you'll be greatly disappointed. People fail to keep promises, lie, are unreliable and well....human! God is not like that as noted in His word.

Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.".

Psalm 119: 89-90

"Forever, O Lord, your word
is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Psa 119:90      

Your faithfulness endures to all generations;
you have established the earth, and it stands fast"


The Bible calls anything that is put above God "idolatry". Putting anything above God is a sin, which is another aspect of it. It is more than the physical act in and of itself. Luke 4:8 "And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'". Idolatry is serving anything other than God in God's place. Getting wrapped up in someone in the way I just explained, is indeed idolatry.

Also, lust has a lot to do with it as in heterosexual relationships. Which isn't a pure motivation for any relationship. Granted, everyone gets "the urge" at times, but to get involved with someone merely for their body is hurtful not only to you, but the other person. I don't know about you, but if I found out someone only wanted to date me because they thought I was attractive, I'd be quite upset. Not that it's wrong to think someone is attractive, but there is a difference between looking and staring/fantasizing about. The latter can lead to a lot of heartache and unnecessary issues. And it is sinful.

Galatians 5:17 "For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do."

 A lot of people (especially Christians) don't understand a lot about homosexuality and I believe that Christians react harshly towards the homosexual community as a knee-jerk reaction to the gay activists. I do not condone homosexuality as it is sin, but I do want to extend the grace and mercy to homosexuals that has been extended to me as a Christian. Yes, they are still sinners in need of a Savior as much as anyone else, but they are no worse than anyone else.

[IZ]

How can homosexuality be a choice?

I'm sure there are plenty of gay people who really don't want to feel the way they do...

[Daniel]

What I don't get is why people say it is a choice AND a mental illness..

 

[Scilla]

Ugh how are you still having this debate? No one will EVER agree..

[Elizabeth Rose]

Ugh how are you still having this debate? No one will EVER agree..

Fo real. I mean, it has become quite dull anyway...

[Shinya]

How many threads concerning Christianity/religion in general have been posted already, anyway??

..this kind of discussion isn't going to end soon, is it..

[Isnt Anything]

How many threads concerning Christianity/religion in general have been posted already, anyway??

..this kind of discussion isn't going to end soon, is it..

Sadly, most religious debates go in circles. Anyone entering in them should realize that as soon as possible and proceed with caution.

Secondly, no, I don't believe there is a "gay gene" you are born with nor do I believe it's a mental illness. A mental illness is a chemical imbalance of sorts like bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia and the like. I also don't think it's something you can cure with medication. I don't believe anyone wakes up and says "I'm gay" one day and goes about their business. But it seems like being "bi" seems to be the trend with teens now...

What I'm saying is, there is no solid scientific proof of the "gay gene". So, again, why this is a common belief is a mystery. Especially in a world that relies heavily on science and "facts" as opposed to religion and faith. Seems like people have faith in the gay gene and no fact to back it up.

I DO believe homosexuality is at least somewhat caused by emotional patterns developed over a lifetime. Some anger, hurt, resentment, abuse..etc experienced in childhood can manifest itself into homosexuality. Sometimes it's lack of a same sex role model or father figure in both a boy and girls life. There is proof of this. Go here: NARTH.com for further reading. 

Some women never felt attractive to men and think women would like them better.
Some women were sexually abused and only feel "safe" being with other women rather than a man.
Some women aren't close with their mothers and never formed a proper mother/daughter bond with eachother and the woman will seek this in a lesbian relationship.

The same applies to men as well. Homosexuality isn't about sex, but about filling a void for connection. Yes, sex is involved and homosexuals ARE attracted physically to the same sex, but I believe the desire or "urges" are bred out of a deep need for connection/acceptance/love. There is nothing wrong with needing that, but there is something wrong and unhealthy about meeting it with homosexuality.

The reason why I'm in here debating this because it's so common to believe the lie that you are "gay" and therefore, you MUST live life as a homosexual or else you'll be miserable. Change is not an option because you can't change. If this is the truth, then I don't understand why the suicide rate is so high and the drug use rate is so high among homosexuals. Seems like this wouldn't be happening if it were a truly happy and freeing lifestyle. The proof seems to be the opposite and I'm not buying into the "it's great!" mentality when it comes to being gay. I seem to see that this is destructive and has hurt and even taken many lives.

As as Christian, I really don't want to condemn homosexuals because I'm just as sinful. The truth is, change IS possible and you don't have to be a slave to what everyone tells you about homosexuality. You have a choice to make up your own mind and challenge the belief that gays can't change. Since becoming a Christian I have the freedom to live free and not be a slave to homosexuality. I don't have to be a lesbian and deal with all the garbage that comes with that. Am I straight? No. I'm not. I'd be considered "bi", but I choose not to label myself anything. There is freedom from sin and being a slave to it. I've chosen that and yes, it's difficult, I know that I'm happier now than having an obsessive girlfriend who keys my car because I made her angry. Yes, these things happen.

Anyway, I'm not trying to "debate" or go in circles about "religion". Its about freedom and redemption from sin and it's trappings....I have zero interest in religion.

[Roger]

It's funny to me that you would deny whether homosexuality is caused by natural stimuli.  If it was strictly social and had absolutely nothing to do with nature, then it would be a behavior only exhibited in humans, correct?  Well there's where your belief breaks down...

Many animals have shown homosexual tendencies.  In fact, a relatively large number of male sheep (something like 8% http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1582336,00.html) engage in homosexual activity regularly according to studies.  There are entire books written on homosexuality in animals. Many birds (vultures and penguins being the most documented), reptiles, and most mammal species have also been known to exhibit homosexual behavior.

Saying homosexuality is unnatural or wrong just makes you look ignorant. And believing so just because religion tells you makes it look as if you're incapable of thinking for yourself.  If you're Christian, then that means you have to believe God to be infallible.  However, you see homosexuality as wrong.  So the fact that any animal (man included) exhibits homosexual behavior means that God made a mistake.  I thought that was impossible?

Basically, don't use religion to back up an argument because it's way too easy to disprove religious claims.  If you want to believe something, feel free, but don't try to use it as basis for an opinion in any kind of debate.

[DiE HaRrD PuNk]

Well, it was admitted by Jesus that there are homosexuals. I don't see why it is so wrong.
On top of that, if someone "PRACTICES" homosexuality, it is a sin. You can still be gay, but you must be with a woman.. Technically..? I don't know. The bible was written by men, not God, so how do we know what is the absolute truth, and what is not?

[Hannahbal]

And that is just one of the reasons why the Bible is a terrible terrible book!

[BiggerSquarierSpongier]

        I hate it how anymore people think that just because something is old that means it's outdated. Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? They're over two thousand years old, and contain manuscripts from almost every book of the Old Testament- and despite being old as the hills, their texts match almost identically to those of the modern day Old Testament. Admittedly, it seems as though something as significant and controversial as the Bible would have been altered numerously over the course of the years, and I'm sure
within certain translations mankind has added his own self-driven input. But considering the almost seamless preservation made evident by the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it seems incredibly unlikely that God would allow His originally-inspired words to completely vanish off the face of the earth.
              That being said, there are indeed several Biblical passages that condemn homosexuality, a number of which have already been pointed out by Isnt Anything. While I do not feel it is our place to tell someone they are downright going to hell, I do believe that the "Christian" world needs to wake up and read their Bibles before they dismiss homosexuality as an acceptable "alternative lifestyle."

               By the way, I find the whole "animal homosexuality" argument somewhat irrelevent.. There are several species of animals that devour their own young. Does that mean we should too?

[IZ]

And that is just one of the reasons why the Bible is a terrible terrible book!

I concur.